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Eva Amsen: Hi! And welcome to cryotalk. I'm. Avan and I'm. Here today with Mimi Ho, Assistant Professor of Microbiology and Immunology at Columbia University.

Eva Amsen: Her research group Uses prior toem methods to study host pathogen interactions in malaria parasites to Hi, meaning welcome. How are you today? I'm. Good. Thank you so much for having me

Eva Amsen: no problem.

Georgios Giazitzis: And then I think the start of can you maybe share a little bit about your career? Sorry, Sorry for interrupting you. Can we start over because it was like a change on Mimi's camera and the sound. I always sorry for that,

Eva Amsen: because in the very beginning, so it will be really hard to edit it, so i'll start. I'll start all the way at the top again.

Eva Amsen: Hi! And welcome to cryotalk! I'm ava amson, and I'm here today with Minihoe Assistant Professor of Microbiology and Immunology at Columbia University.

Her Research Group Uses for I Oem Methods to study Host Pathogen Interactions in Malaria Parasites

Chi-Min Ho: Hi Mimi welcome. How are you so much? I'm good. Thank you so much for having me great, great to have you

Chi-Min Ho: so I think the start of. Why, don't you share a little bit about your career so far, and you can tell people how you got to where you are today. Yeah, happy to. So um, I I guess, going back. So I got my undergrad at Berkeley in molecular cell biology, Berkeley, Mcb. And then, after that, I worked um

Chi-Min Ho: as a research technician um in the lab of Bob Stroud at Ucsf working on membrane proteins. Um. I was a member of protein biochemist. The lab worked on you know, x-ray crystallography, using x or crystallography to solve structures of numbering proteins Um, and so I was there for about, I think, five or six years, and then, after that.

Chi-Min Ho: Um. I worked at Novartis in Emeryville, California, in there and then of Artists Institutes for biomedical research in their infectious diseases division for about three years.

Chi-Min Ho: Um, And so, and that time was working on kind of um, both viral and bacterial diseases, different projects. Um, and that kind of really, I think, lid a fire under me I got. That was I got really inspired and kind of that was what inspired me to go back to get the Phd. So then, after three years and of artists, um

Chi-Min Ho: I left to go to Ucla um to get my Phd with um Dr. Hong zo um He was my Phd. Supervisor at Ucla. Um was there for four four years in a and a few months, and then after that um

Chi-Min Ho: um apply for and got a tenure track position at Columbia. And so that's where I am now. I moved here and started my position in January, two thousand and twenty. So it's been about two and a half years

great.

Eva Amsen: It's a strange time to start isn't it. Yeah, you've done both academia and industry. Any interesting differences there.

Chi-Min Ho: Yeah, I mean, I think that uh

Chi-Min Ho: interesting differences. So I think that

Chi-Min Ho: I think that an industry it can be a lot more structured. I guess there's there is a lot more structure which I really enjoyed,

Chi-Min Ho: and that's something that i'm trying to kind of bring across in my lab. Now. So there's a lot of kind of practices that I really liked that in industry. Um kind of you know, setting intentions at the beginning of a year, having milestones and kind of check-ins every quarter, or like having, you know, the halfway year. Mark check-ins um on different projects and things like that um I felt like

Chi-Min Ho: worked really Well, there's also they're very, very much into

Chi-Min Ho: notekeeping like keeping really really good records. And so that's something that I've also brought across with me into my lab. Now that I think is really important. Um, especially with the work that we do, keeping track of all of your data and all of your grids, and everything is super important. So that's a good to have. Yeah, lots of lots of really good habits from industry that i'm bringing across.

Eva Amsen: So how did you get started using cryoem.

Chi-Min Ho: Yeah. So I like, I said I was a memory and protein biochemist by training. And so when I started my Phd, I actually

Chi-Min Ho: fell in love with this protein complex called Katex. So I was really interested in this protein complex. It's a large membrane protein translocation complex. It's a translocon in um

Chi-Min Ho: that works in the parasite that causes malaria, because when it falls it from, and it's responsible for the um export, The transport of all of these hundreds and hundreds of effective proteins that the uh pairs that uses to remodel the host red blood cells. So the parasite lives inside human red blood cells.

Chi-Min Ho: Um! And in order to be able to do that, it has to completely remodel the inside of the red flat cell. Um, And so it has all these effective proteins that it has to somehow make, and then secrete out into the host cell. And so all of those travel through this um, this large membrane protein complex called ptex um. And so I kind of really fell in love with this complex,

Chi-Min Ho: and wanted to solve the structure. And um it was. Uh, it became obvious, I think, during my rotations at Ucla that um I am going to be the way to solve this. And so um I ended up joining the lab of Dr. Hongo and Um

Chi-Min Ho: ended up, then using, probably learning from him, and then used it to solve the structure of this large memory and putting complex from uh malaria parasites.

Yeah, that kind of brings me to my next question. Um, what makes cry? I am such a good method to really study host profits and interactions compared to other things.

Chi-Min Ho: Yeah. So I think that I mean, there's two things. Um. So one, I think, was more relevant during my Phd. And one is more relevant now that I started my own lab. So um, I think the first thing is that

Chi-Min Ho: um single particle. Pr. Because it requires so much less material. You need much less protein. Um. And also you don't need the protein to be nearly as homogeneous

Chi-Min Ho: as other structural biology methods. So, for example, like extra crystallography or Nmr, you need large amounts of large large amounts of protein at high concentrations that are very, very pure.

Chi-Min Ho: Um, and that's very difficult to do. If you're looking at kind of, you know native or endogenous sources non-model organisms right and so I think that one of the major strengths of uh I am. Is that now? Because you don't need as much sample. You don't need to be as pure. You can go after uh protein complexes from non model organisms, from native sources. So in my case, for example, um, the protein complex I was interested in, you could not express it

Chi-Min Ho: in recombinant systems. Um, it just doesn't express properly. It doesn't fold properly. It's it's a mess. And actually the organism that I work on a plasmodium phase.

Chi-Min Ho: Actually, the vast majority of the proteins are like that. They really don't like to be um kind of express and recombinant systems. And so

Chi-Min Ho: um! That's reflected in kind of the posity of structural information from this organism. And there's a lot of other organisms out there like that that are non-monal organisms that you know It's just very difficult to express those proteins you're commonly and so now with crowded You don't have to anymore. You can Actually, there's more and more stories coming out every day of people. I'm sorry

Chi-Min Ho: of people um purifying and solving the structures of these poor, just protein complexes that they've been rich from endogenous sources, and that is totally something that would not have been possible without single part of the car electron microscopy. So I think that's one of the major benefits um,

Chi-Min Ho: especially when it comes to infectious diseases, because we have a lot of you know non-modal organisms and infectious disease that um really benefit from from zoom particle. And so now I think that was kind of very much the story of my Phd. And now that I started my own lab. We're taking off in this new direction. Um called nc two-election tomography where we actually don't even break open the cell. We're looking directly at our parasites, living inside red blood cells intact. And so we just directly take our parasite infected red blood cells. We freeze them,

Chi-Min Ho: and then we um kind of

Chi-Min Ho: are able to. Then send them to a very thin section column that we can then take till series of, and so you can actually see Um, we're getting this really really gorgeous telegrams of the host pathogen interface. So we're directly able to actually visualize the host pathogen interface at some nanometer to near atomic resolutions

Chi-Min Ho: right either directly or using sept program averaging, which is absolutely amazing.

Chi-Min Ho: So I think that is also another major strength of pro-em, cry wet, and looking at who's got the generous interactions is that you can actually, with your eyes. Look at the Internet. Yeah, that's such a like such an advantage to really see the actual, the place where it happens really

absolutely.

Eva Amsen: Um. And have we already talked a little bit about your career? But has there ever been a moment either in your research or in your career path where things took a surprising turn.

Chi-Min Ho: Yes, definitely. Um. So as you,

Chi-Min Ho: they have seen from kind of the first question. My path to where I am right now has been kind of pretty convoluted, not straightforward, right? So I went, you know, kind of. I was in academia for a while that I went to industry, went back to Academia, and actually my original plan. So the reason the original reason to go back and get the Phd. Was actually so that I could go back to industry. So I like was having so much fun at Novartis. Um, working with these amazing people on these really exciting projects that were that really had, you know, immediate downstream

Chi-Min Ho: effects like downstream applications. So one of the drugs, one of the practice that I was working on

Chi-Min Ho: the drug reached face one clinical trials by the time that I left the company, which was really exciting right. And so my original motivation for going to get the Phd. Was, you know, to get the Phd. Because I could see that, you know, in order to be able to kind of participate and kind of, you know, gain more influence over projects and just kind of you know. Give more. I'd be more involved um

Chi-Min Ho: at a higher level in industry. I I needed that Phd. And so that was my original motivation of taking a huge pay cut and going back to grad school

Chi-Min Ho: to get that piece of paper so that I could go back into industry um and do really exciting things. And so that was kind of my game plan uh during my Phd. Um, and

Chi-Min Ho: I hadn't even considered staying in Academia actually until the summer before I graduated. Um, I didn't know at the time that I was going to out the graduating so soon, so I had this pizza. P. We'd. Finally, I had finally solved the structure, and we had, you know, kind of

Chi-Min Ho: You've gotten the paper accepted, and so I was presenting it at a conference at a Grc. Um. It was a host, host, parasite Interactions conference. And

Chi-Min Ho: when I was presenting it, a lot of pis came up to me afterwards, and they were like That's awesome. What are you planning on doing next with it? And I was, you know. What would you want to do next? And I told them what I wanted to do next, and then they were like, So are you applying for positions like what? What's happening? And then I was like, Oh, no, i'm going back to industry,

Chi-Min Ho: and everybody was just like. But you have all these plans. You have all these you want to do with this project with. Why wouldn't you even consider the possibility of staying in academia, and maybe pursuing some of these exciting new avenues. And so, if so, something that I hadn't I literally was. I had these blinders on, and I wasn't thinking right, and so they um. Two of the junior Apis at the conference, who are very close friends of mine now. Um spent kind of two hours on the last day of the conference, just

Chi-Min Ho: sitting there and talking to me, and convincing me that I should at least give it a shot,

Chi-Min Ho: and so Um: So yeah, I kind of had a bit of a meltdown in in Boston Logan airport on the way home, because I. It was just, you know. It was something I had not even considered, and so I was freaking out a little bit. I called my sister um, and she was like, Okay. So I think the reason you're freaking out is because you're trying to make this decision right now. This huge decision about whether this day in Academia, or go back to industry

Chi-Min Ho: without any information, right like I was trying to make the the call right there in the airport. Yeah. And so she was like. Why, don't you just apply to both positions and then go on the interviews. You'll learn more, and then you'll feel better about making the decision because you have more information. So

Chi-Min Ho: that's what I ended up doing. I applied for some independent fellows positions. I also applied for just you know some straight of faculty tenor tech faculty positions and apply for industry positions as well. Um! And then I ended up going on all of the interviews, and in the end um! I chose the faculty position because it was the position that allowed me to do all of the things that I love. So I kind of really fell in love with this parasite. It's amazing. It does this really cool all of this really cool biology that you don't see anywhere else. It's really unique.

Chi-Min Ho: And um obviously I also very much love Kyoto, and then cry with T. And so this was the position that allowed me to kind of continue to be able to do all of those if that makes sense. So yeah, I completely unexpected. I wasn't totally, not planning to end up in academia. But um! Here I am. That's a great story, and I can totally imagine how a room of academics reacts when you say that you have to stay in industry, they must have been very shocked. Yeah,

Chi-Min Ho: Yeah. Um, yeah. I think the attitudes are changing these days. I think definitely. In the in the old days people were very kind of

Chi-Min Ho: very hardcore academia, but I think people are recognizing these days that you know you. You can do amazing science in either setting. There's amazing science happening in both in both locations, I mean, I think,

Chi-Min Ho: like what has happened with this pandemic and the development vaccine has been a really beautiful example of the fact that you need contributions both from academia and in history in order to get something big like that to happen. Right? So Um: yeah, I think I think more and more people are recognizing that it's not

Chi-Min Ho: It's It's not one or the other a lot of times. It's kind of a really cool interplay between the two.

So

Chi-Min Ho: so what's next? What are you looking forward to in your research or career? Yeah. So, um, we're currently pushing to try to get our first people out as a lab. So that's one thing that we're really looking forward to um. I just had to one hundred and fifty.

Chi-Min Ho: Um! My first two graduate students join a couple of months ago, and they're amazing, So i'm really enjoying watching them learn and kind of fall in love with Koem. Um, it's. I think, that you know it wasn't that long ago for me the first time that I fell in love with my electron microscopy, but it's really fun to watch people kind of go through the the first steps where they I don't know all of that joy is is really really fun. So that's something that I'm really enjoying right now. And we're like, I said, we're pushing really hard on this paper right now. So we're really looking forward to getting that

Chi-Min Ho: um. And then, yeah, you think that sounds like you look forward to. Yeah, yeah, definitely. And then I think from then we're we're kind of. We've been over the past two and a half years. We've spent really kind of from scratch like teaching ourselves how to do the cry wet because we didn't know how to do any of it at the beginning, like

Chi-Min Ho: you know how to how to prepare the cells, how to do the how to do the you know, freezing the billing,

Chi-Min Ho: the data collection, or any of the data processing? We We started literally from Scratch, and have been kind of teaching ourselves. And so um, I think after this first big paper gets out, if this is kind of our paper to see like. We can do this like, you know, we're here. And then after that, we're really really excited to kind of push the boundaries and see what new things we can discover in terms of um

Chi-Min Ho: how this awesome parasite interacts with his host. I'm using this new method so very excited.

Eva Amsen: And you've also been working on a podcast that we had. Um. We heard a little bit about that podcast two episodes ago when we spoke with Liz Kellogg

Eva Amsen: Um, and then um the episode. After that. Um. We spoke to Mike Tem Frocko, who we didn't we didn't talk about the podcast in that episode. But you're all in this together, I believe. Tell us a bit more. And And what's happening now?

Chi-Min Ho: Yeah, no, definitely. So the podcast was kind of inspired by um. So we formed this kind of um network during the pandemic. That's one awesome thing that's come out of the pandemic is. There's a lot of networks that have formed like support groups. Almost that I don't think would have happened without the pandemic. And so through that Liz and Mike and I got really close. And so um. We were kind of hang out. We have these kind of really awesome conversations, like really broad ranging conversations about all kinds of things. So not just specifically talking shop, but also talking in terms of like

Chi-Min Ho: um kind of what it's like to start up a new lab, especially in the middle of the pandemic um and kind of, you know, career paths and kind of plans and things like that. And then also kind of our hopes and dreams for for the future for crying

Chi-Min Ho: Um! And so out of all these kind of really wonderful conversations we thought, Well, you know, why not share this with people? So we thought it would be really cool. Um, there's obviously, you know, these interviews are great, but it we also. So we wanted to go for we. There's obviously a lot of people already like you already doing these amazing interviews. So we wanted to go for something a little bit different. And so what we did um

Chi-Min Ho: is. We have this series of six interviews where it's a little bit like fireside chats a little bit. Um almost so. It's the three of us, and we're interviewing somebody. Um, we have. We invited it kind of a few different people in the field kind of leaders in the field, and also people who are brand new just starting out in the field. Um! And we tried to make sure we had covered a broad diversity in terms of kind of different career paths. And so we've invited these guests to come um kind of their each one, I think maybe

be thirty minutes

Chi-Min Ho: um twenty to thirty minute episodes, and we really tailored the questions to the the person. It was really special, because each of the people that we invited were people that we personally knew and had relationships with. And so they were kind of really awesome interviews because they shared a little bit about their career paths, how they got to where they're going, which I think is really great. Um! A little bit about their vision for the future. And then also kind of you know

Chi-Min Ho: more about their individual science as well. So I think it's a little bit different than you know the normal kind of interview. And so I think people I mean just we thought it was really fun to do. And then afterwards we've been watching like we just watched the last one, so they've been kind of doing post production and then sending us um the kind of final

Chi-Min Ho: final pieces for us to kind of go in and make the last minute changes that we want, and they're amazing like they're absolutely all of them turned out so well. We're really excited to share it with everybody and um we were planning on doing it as a one off. But I mean, if everybody else thinks these are as we do, we might have to do a second season. So

Chi-Min Ho: Yeah, And by the time that this episode goes out um it, your podcast should be live. So we can put a link in the in the description that would be amazing. Yeah, I mean, there it's literally like we if there was My, I I want to say, you know all of the episodes are my favorite. Actually, they're all from completely different perspective, some with really senior people, kind of very forward thinking um

Chi-Min Ho: the the one with Ephan, where he talked a lot about kind of mentorship, and how how to build a healthy lab environment and how to kind of just, you know, Foster, like a broader, like healthy, you know, just a healthy collegial community. Um, just a lot of really amazing stuff in there. So i'm very excited to share with everyone,

Eva Amsen: and I know from experience. It's fun to interview people for a podcast.

Eva Amsen: Um, So it it sounds like this was already fun. But what else do you do for fun

Chi-Min Ho: sometimes if I want to just chill then. And um, I watch Tv also. But I think just to kind of calm down and relax. I like, hang out with my dog. This is mighty um, yes. So he's a Chewini. He's about thirteen years old Now I think

Chi-Min Ho: he's been with me a long time. And so, yeah, he, he, we we like going on locks with him. Um to. There's a bakery that we really like. That's down on the upper West side, and so we I can. Every Every weekend we walk down with him. Yeah, I spend a lot of time just hanging out with him.

Eva Amsen: Yeah, that's fun, especially going for walks. I just have a cats, and so I can't really go for walks with my cats. He's just sleeping most of the time.

Chi-Min Ho: Yeah, I mean, I mean lately. So I've been taking him in. And actually with my students are learning how to mill. Now i'm on the fibs. And so he's been going in and hanging out with them while they mill. And um. Yeah, they've really enjoyed that. I think they've gone to the point where they refuse to mill without him. Actually, it's part of the team. Yes,

Eva Amsen: um. I got a couple of of quickfire questions for you as well, and we ask everyone the same questions, so that we can kind of compare like, What are all the prior and researchers doing so? Do you prefer the city or the countryside.

Chi-Min Ho: I like them both. Um. So I grew up in Ames, Iowa, which is definitely, I think, what most people in New York would consider the countryside. Um,

Chi-Min Ho: and it was an amazing place to grow up as a kid. So I spent kind of all my time running around outside building for it like raising baby birds all kinds of stuff right and then. Now, I think as an adult,

Chi-Min Ho: I prefer to live in a city. I'm. I think i'm definitely a big city person. Um, but it's really nice to visit the countries. I'm sorry the countryside to decompress. Yeah,

Chi-Min Ho: it's a good balance. How do you like to cook.

Chi-Min Ho: I do like cooking. Um. I love cooking. I like baking even more actually. So I started baking before I started cooking. But yeah, I do really like to cook when I have time.

Eva Amsen: What's your favorite thing to make?

Chi-Min Ho: Um?

Chi-Min Ho: I I don't have a favorite. I really like Nissa salad, so I I make a pretty good miso salad. Um. There's also a lot of kind of just um. I don't know basic

Chi-Min Ho: home food like Chinese dishes that I learned from my mom that I that I like making There's this um Chinese spare ribs with green beans, but I really like as well.

Chi-Min Ho: That's good, and you you mentioned that you like to read um. Is there anything that you'd recommend?

Chi-Min Ho: Oh, you should have warned me about this one I have so many. Um,

Chi-Min Ho: I Yes, I have a ton um. So I I really like enders game. That's like my go to that. I always recommend to people's enders game um Science Fiction one. I also really like war for the Oaks, which is more of like an urban fantasy. Um! What if I've been really

Chi-Min Ho: I like seven years actually as well. Um. The the author is from my hometown actually, which I didn't discover until I was already like really into his books. But yeah, I could give you a whole list. But I think we probably don't have time.

Chi-Min Ho: And And what about um Tv? Do you watch Tv or films. I do um both. I watch more Tv these days than films. Um, although I have to say that I I went and watched the new top gun twice in theaters. I'm a huge top gun fan

Chi-Min Ho: like guilty pleasure like I I I absolutely love about. And so we went and watched it in theaters twice, actually, and

Chi-Min Ho: it was equally good both times. I really the new one is really good. If you're it's always better into cinema, especially those that one particularly. Yeah, I think it's worth watching on the big screen. Um, just because the the the visuals are amazing. And so it just won't have the same effect if you don't watch it on the big screen. Yeah,

And do you like listening to music?

Chi-Min Ho: I do,

Chi-Min Ho: And what kind of music do you like. Um! It depends on what i'm doing. So if i'm writing,

Chi-Min Ho: I like, listen to lofi music. So it's not. There's no lyrics, but like I can't. When i'm doing when i'm doing research, when i'm doing work, i'm working in a lab. I have a hard time focusing. If I listen to things that have lyrics, because then you like start singing along, and then you like, lose your place. So um! The Lofi music works really well for that, because there's not any lyrics to get caught up in, and it's pretty chill.

Chi-Min Ho: Um, but it keeps you weak

Chi-Min Ho: as well so that I really like um.

Chi-Min Ho: And then these low-fi playlists now as well. There are. There's some really great ones. Yeah, I I discovered them. I don't remember when I discovered them.

Chi-Min Ho: But yeah, They're really good for all kinds of things for picking particles when you're doing something that you know you have to stay away for that, like you just kind of have to power through. It's really good for that, too. So gotten really into that recently.

Um:

Eva Amsen: And yeah. So I know you love science. But if you had to do something else. If you were not a scientist, what would you be?

Chi-Min Ho: I think, if I hadn't already done it? I would say that I would want to be a bartender, because I think that's a really

Chi-Min Ho: well job you get to like. Introduce a lot of people. It is kind of fe centric as well. Um, but I did bar back for a couple of months already when I was in between Jobs um right after I graduated from undergrad, and so now I think it would Probably I think it would be fun to run

Chi-Min Ho: to own like a bakery, slash coffee shop, cafe type thing. Maybe I don't know that I wouldn't want to do like a full on restaurant. But like I think that would be mine as well like running a little cafe. Yeah, yeah, I think that would be amazing. Maybe on the beach somewhere in a beach town.

Eva Amsen: Yeah, and it's funny like you said bartending, because in my mind that is so much like a love work. It's like, Yeah, it's very much keeping things clean. And yeah, yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, I I think that's why. Also, I love cooking and baking. Because it's It's basically like, doing biochemistry right like you're mixing things.

Chi-Min Ho: So finally, I've got one more question that I ask everyone. And then do you have any advice for researchers who are just starting out? So maybe thinking about your new students. But we do advice them. Yeah. So um. I think that the first thing that I rise them is to keep an open mind. Um,

Chi-Min Ho: don't put on the blinders, so that, you know obviously I mean, I think, for micro path. It's pretty obvious that, like

Chi-Min Ho: you have to grab opportunities when they come up, and they might not always come up when you expect them to. They might not always be a lot of times they won't be what you're expecting. So just keep an open mind and keep your eyes open, and so so that you don't miss those opportunities when they come along, because a lot of times the unexpected ones are actually the best ones.

Chi-Min Ho: Um! So I think that would be my my first piece of advice. Um! My second piece of advice would be to find good mentors, and by that I don't just mean your Phd supervisor, I mean like at all levels right? So

Chi-Min Ho: um, I think that it's really important. If you're a graduate student, for example, to kind of find a couple like one or two post docs

Chi-Min Ho: and one or two kind of maybe people that are um at the assistant professor level, and then one or two people, their mid career senior, like people at all different levels, because um,

Chi-Min Ho: they're all going to give you different advice right because they are at different different lifesite life stages. I guess I was about to say lifecycle stages because I'm. My mind is always think about parasites. But but yeah, they're all you know. We're all at different stages, and so the advice that they have to offer is very different, their perspective so very different. So I think it's really important to find mentors at all different levels, and then also obviously at the same level as you. Um,

Chi-Min Ho: I think when I was younger, whenever people said networking, I was always like oh, like networking. It feels kind of artificial, and like you're putting yourself out there, and it's, you know there's ulterior motives, but actually um, so I don't like that. But I do think that you know these days

Chi-Min Ho: what I think of as not as my network is building kind of a support group, right like a support network. So I think of it as a support network more than as like a as like a career network, if that makes sense. And so um! That's why I saying like at during the pandemic. I formed kind of a support network in

Chi-Min Ho: with my parasitology colleagues, so there were a few other junior pi, so all started around the same time as me in person, atology, and we form kind of like a support group where we have a text chain, and we like, share kind of all of our whenever we're really sad about something, or really excited about something, We have somebody who are who are like exactly at the same stage as you, and so they get excited. They know exactly where you are, and I have the same thing in Prior. I am. Yeah. So I have. I have a group of that in in Paristhology, and then one also in Crabia, my two fields. And so I think that's super important. Um,

Chi-Min Ho: they're not. I don't think you know they're they're my friends. I don't think of them as like, but it's it's. I think that's really important is to build a support network appears that you know. Understand what you're going through, and are in it with you. Um! You can kind of really share your your wins and your losses with it.

Eva Amsen: That's that's great advice, and I think it's really useful for people to know that that we're like you said networking sounds boring and horrible. But it really is just socializing and talking to people. Yeah, no. And I think definitely thinking of it as a support network helps a lot.

Eva Amsen: Um. Well, thank you so much that brings us to the end of our episode today. So thanks again for coming on the episode, and thank you. Everyone for listening to or watching cryo talk.

Chi-Min Ho: Thank you so much for having me. I had a really good time.

Thanks.